Selling More Than a Product: How to Become a Trusted Advisor (S1.6)

In this episode, we sit down with Jonathan Heibein, District Manager at Boshart Industries, to talk about what it really takes to succeed in a competitive industry—especially when you’re just starting out.

Jonathan shares his journey into the plumbing and water well space, including how he pushed past imposter syndrome and turned inexperience into an advantage. This conversation goes beyond products and sales tactics—it’s about mindset, relationships, and how to show up in a way that earns trust and wins business.

You’ll hear how top performers separate themselves by asking better questions, being transparent, and truly listening to their clients. If you’ve ever felt like you didn’t know enough or weren’t ready yet, this episode will challenge that thinking—and show you how to use it to your advantage.

Whether you’re new to the industry or looking to sharpen your edge, this episode is packed with insights to help you build stronger relationships, stand out from the competition, and close more deals.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, my name is Aiden Henry and welcome to the Contractor Elite Podcast. In this episode, we are sitting down with Jonathan Highbine, who is the district sales manager for Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada. It's a phenomenal episode. We get into all kinds of great stuff about what it means to come from outside of the industry and be successful, even if you don't have a really, really amazing or long history of understanding the product, the industry, the customers, you name it. We get into what it means to be a trusted advisor and how to educate your clients more than just offering them a quote and walking away from the job. So it's a really great episode. You want to watch the whole thing, enjoy it, and uh yeah, let's just get into it. Jonathan, welcome. Thank you so much for being here, man. It's uh it's a pleasure to have you. I'm excited about the conversation that we have uh cooked up for today. How are you feeling? How are you feeling today?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah, feeling great, and thanks for having me. I really look forward to having the conversation. Uh, and uh yeah, just looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Yeah, man. All right, so today we are talking about selling the business, not just selling the product. And obviously, um this was a topic that we had hand chosen for you, um, just kind of given who you are in in Bowshark and your role and your history and your work history and some of the different roles that you've had. And you've had, you know, quite an interesting work history, I think, that gives you a lot of unique perspectives in this role. So maybe just for anyone tuning in for the first time, who are you at Bowshark? What do you do maybe in the present day? Uh, and then after that, we'll start jumping into kind of how you ended up here.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah, for sure. So uh my name is Jonathan Highbine. I am the uh district manager for outside sales for Eastern Canada. I joined Beauchart in 2022. Uh so as it relates to my role, I oversee Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada in an outside sales capacity. Uh and to your point, yeah, I've had uh uh a varying uh professional career in my life. Uh after college, I started off as a professional ballroom dancer and Latin dancer and instructor, and that's how I met my wife. She owned a dance studio at the time. Uh from there, after we had a child, we moved closer to friends and family, and I actually uh got into the insurance restoration industry and worked all the way from being on the tools in restoration to being a project manager and overseeing some of the restoration businesses there. Uh from there, I moved to the insurance side of things from an appraisal standpoint and was one of their property appraisers who would oversee and take a look at estimates, ensure that estimates were written correctly. And, you know, through time, uh went into a leadership role and a leadership capacity within that unit and oversaw uh the Ontario appraisal unit and also oversaw their uh vendor program from a restoration standpoint. So uh to say the least, it has been quite the varying experience that I've had. Um, and you know, just really was ready for a change coming out of the pandemic. So at the time uh I was approached to see whether or not that uh Beauchart uh would be a fit for myself. Uh for when I had the conversations, it was, you know, pretty apparent and rather quickly that the culture, the organization, the people, everything that you know uh I look for right now at this time of my life, checked a lot of those boxes and and also just based off where Beauchart's located from. Um so obviously for those who are listening and not knowing where we're from, um smaller town in Ontario, rural town, and not that far from where I grew up in. Uh so in a way, roundabout experience, it felt like I was coming back home for a little bit. So um yeah, it it it has definitely been a little bit of a whirlwind, but I don't think it's out of the ordinary in this day and age for people to change professions throughout their uh professional careers.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So no, I mean I feel like I've read statistics that like you'll have the average adult or something like that will have like seven different careers in their life or something along those lines. Obviously, if that's an average, some are gonna be more and some are gonna be less. But yeah, I think even though you have had like all these um kind of different opportunities, whether yeah, related to uh a dance studio, obviously that's very different than working in insurance and restoration and that side of things. And now you're in uh sales for plumbing accessories and water well accessories, and so obviously, again, um kind of a diverse background there. And so stepping into your role at Bowsharp, maybe in the beginning, what was that like for you? Like, was that nerve-wracking? Did you feel like um you were equipped because of the experience that you've had previously? Were you, you know, uh anticipating a steep learning curve? Like, kind of what was that like in the beginning to step into a role that you're maybe not totally sure of?

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Uh I would say a combination of everything that you just said, if we if we wanted to do the Coles Notes version of it. Um where there was probably some anxiety is definitely the industry and and product knowledge and those types of things. And um, and and of course, there's the sense of potential imposter syndrome uh when you come into a role. However, um, with that said, one of the things in terms of the initial conversations when I came into this industry and I joined uh Beauchart and really understanding the role and the dynamic of where my main accountabilities were uh was really working with people and having conversations with people. And, you know, if you were to ask Jonathan of 10, 15 years ago, um, you know, maybe people at the office don't realize this, but I'm sort of a closet introvert. Um I get home, I like to sort of go in my man cave and do my own thing type of thing. Um, I was never one to be the person who was, you know, leading a conversation in a room, those types of things. Uh, but throughout my career development, whether that's through my personal life uh and some of the things that I did within my personal life, uh, and then throughout my professional life, it really built me up into a rapport of talking to people, um, engaging in conversations, really getting to try to understand people's stories and know a little bit more about them. Um, and when I was approached uh to come on to this side of the industry, uh, that was one of the things that was really reinforced for myself was really getting an understanding of that and and also expressing that that was some of the strengths that I could carry into this role. Um and because of that, that's really been something that I've leveraged throughout that process is you know, having conversations to understand people's businesses. What is it that I don't know about maybe a person's business that I could maybe help them thrive in and be successful in? So whether that's product, uh, whether that's increasing margin, whether that's just bringing nuance or a different set of pictures to it. Um, and the other thing too is is as it relates to the industry, I have no problems coming into a conversation and admittingly saying that I know probably a lot less than they do as it relates to the industry. Um, you know, I know that we really work closely with from the marketing standpoint and through the accelerator program. Uh, and that is actually one of the courses that I uh I actually narrate or basically led on that um was don't be afraid to ask the silly questions. Um, because I think that that's sometimes when people get into their headspace a little bit, um, you start to be, I can't do this, I can't do this. And if once you let that go and you're having just normal conversations, you know, it more often than not, you're going to find, you know, a positive endpoint in terms of that. So um, yeah, so that's really where I came from.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

That's interesting. So I want to almost just back up, and you're doing a fantastic job because you're already probably giving some strategies towards my next question for you, which is so, you know, you came into this industry with no previous background in again, plumbing and water well accessories, and neither did I, to be clear. Uh, and we've been here very similar amounts of time. And so, you know, you stepped into that, you mentioned imposter syndrome at one point. And I think what's interesting about the industry that Bauchart industries or the industries that Bauchart services is um there is uh a lot of chatter in the industry about uh the core workforce of these contractors and uh tradespeople aging out and that there is not enough young people behind them replacing them. And so, you know, on the one hand, that means that it there's just tons of opportunity there for the young people that are getting into the industry. But on the other hand, I can imagine that if you're a young person stepping into this and you're working alongside people that have been in this industry their whole lives, you know, we talked about seven different careers before. Some contractors have never done that, they've worked one or two careers and that's been their their entire career, their life's work, right? So for you stepping into a role like this, maybe where you were feeling some of that imposter syndrome and maybe speaking to contractors, up-and-coming guys, people fresh out of trade school that are also maybe feeling a bit of that imposter syndrome, how did you leverage that and turn that into an asset? Because that's you know, one of the core reasons that I specifically wanted to bring you on the show today was because you have done that very successfully. And again, like the accounts that you handle are some of Beauchart's biggest accounts. And so um, how do you go from that kind of fear and insecurity of I don't know what I'm doing, and not just kind of rise to the occasion, but maybe even go beyond that and use that to your advantage?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yeah, it's that's a good question because I think it's it's definitely gonna be, you know, relevant advice depending on where a person is sometimes in their lifespan, whether whether it's whether it's like the professional uh life um based off age and experience. Again, for myself, it was just run with it. Um, it was accept that, you know, accept that you don't know as much as probably who your primary audience is, um, understanding that there's a blind spot, once you recognize that and you start to, you know, once you recognize that, you now have an area of working towards, you know, and starting to develop so that you can start to thrive in that. So if you're feeling some sense of like that imposter syndrome, but yet you have an end goal, and you know, once you start to accept it and start to, you know, really even just understand that the vast majority of people that you're talking to are willing to help you out. And I think that there's some of that too, is that for younger people who are coming into it and who might be struggling with that, it's the sense of, you know, not just coming face to face with it, whoever they're having that conversation with, and just putting it front-facing, look, you know, I'm probably, you know, with what I'm going to suggest or talk about, you probably already know like nine times more than I do, or whatever it might be, you know. But here's some of the things that I bring to the table, right? Um, and that's for myself, how I would start on a lot of my conversations is that it's look, if I get into the topic of product, um, and for uh a good chunk of what it is that we do here at Beauchard and what we sell, um, you know, I'm talking to, you know, contractors or some of our customer accounts who've been dealing with this, these products and like my like-kind products and categories for 20, 30, 40 years. So for me to be able to tell them, you know, some nuance to it that they haven't heard in the last 30 or 40 years, you know, it's probably, you know, I wouldn't say fall on deaf ears, but it's not like I'm telling them anything new. But if I can bring to them something from my experience from a business standpoint, and that's really, as I mentioned, where I like to gravitate towards is, you know, understanding what's happening in their market, understanding their business, um, bringing experience to other conversations without divulging or betraying any confidential trust, but to be able to share what I'm seeing in the market and what I've read about or listened about, um, I think that this is where people start to really then gravitate. And then, of course, you know, through real conversations, you know, is you start to build that trust and that rapport level. So whether you're the end user, and by end user I mean a contractor, right? There's something about building a trust level with the person that you're working for, right? And being able to, and in building that trust level and selling yourself is a lot different than somebody who tries to sell themselves right away without any trust level being carried through. Um, because in some cases, more often than not, it's set up for failure. Uh, for the first time, things actually start to hit a little bit rocky.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

And this, you know, this might seem like a dumb question, but I would have to think that some people are thinking it. You're suggesting don't lie about your experience, don't try to sound smarter than you are, and just own the fact that, hey, you're new to this. And I think one of the things I just want to back on because I think one of the nuggets of wisdom in there that I want to make sure that people listening really hone in on, because we as a sales team have um used this as a technique that I think is super useful on so many levels, and it's such a simple way to approach a conversation, which is uh you talked about, you know, maybe you're about to offer some insight or share something, whether that's uh about the product specifically, whether that's about the industry as a whole, their business, and you said you probably already know this, but and I think that that's such a brilliant little line because you're you're you're doing so many things with that little thing, right? So you're complimenting the person on the other end, assuming or making the assumption that they um are already intelligent enough, experienced enough that they already know what you're gonna tell them. So you're you're paying them a small compliment by doing that. But then what you're also doing is then when you're presenting that information, you give them the opportunity that whether or not they already knew that, they can agree with you and they go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I've heard about this, right? And so whether they are uh exaggerating the truth a little or if they are being sincere, well, if they're exaggerating the truth a little, then you've given them the opportunity to save a little face, appear smarter than maybe they are, and not feel like you've uh demonstrated that they're inferior or stupider than you. But then if they do actually know that, then you're confirming something that they already believe to be true, which goes back to what we were saying before about actually building rapport, having a real conversation with someone uh and not just faking your way through it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, no, it's it's absolutely everything that was there is pretty much spot on. And it's not, you know, asking a question like that isn't because sometimes people go, well, you're trying to force a conversation. And it's not that you're forcing a conversation at all. You know, from a sales point of view, you do to your point, you start to get that transaction of if you get that yes and that commitment, like that's your first yes, right? And that's not necessarily towards a deal or an RFQ or a project, but that's the first nod, whether or not they fully committed to it or not. But to your point, it they might not have thought about that all their saying yes. And now there's this little planted seed in the back of their head going, maybe I should be thinking about that. Maybe my line of sight isn't where it needs to be, and carrying out that conversation. Or uh again, and you you noted it, Aiden was like the affirmation of like, oh yeah, yeah, no, we're totally. What that does for me is supports and affirms so that if I'm going in with an agenda from a conversation standpoint, um, you know, that I can, you know, start to to go down the lane in the road, um, whether that's a planned conversation that we were having on a specific thing, or if I'm meeting somebody for the very first time. Um, and and that's you know, that's not even necessarily just on the professional side, you know, that's in terms of carrying out a personal conversation with somebody as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yep. And I think it's cool again in in that technique of you probably already know this, but I think again, whether you're offering something that they didn't know or that they do know, to me, probably no matter what, it's a step towards being a trusted advisor, right? And this is something that we've talked about again a lot, just you and I, when we've been uh shooting the breeze about sales and business and all these things, and then certainly as a as a corporate sales team here at Bowshar, and um doing anything that you can to move the relationship in that direction. Like you said, getting that first nod, that first bit of uh affirmation, that first yes, you know. I think you were reading uh always be closing recently, right? Is that who is that? Is that Jeff Blunt?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Uh no, Ian and Ian Ferino. Am I saying his name right? The same person that did uh Eat Their Lunch. Oh, yeah, Anthony Annorino? Yeah, Anthony Anorino.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, he's killer. He's got some great stuff. I've read, I can't remember what other one of his. I haven't read Eat Your Lunch yet. But anyways, he talks about that, right? About like, hey, closing and making deals. Uh it's about it's the entire process, you know. And I think maybe even, you know, for the the young contractor listening to this for the first time, if you're starting up a business, if you're just getting your hands dirty for the first time, is not to fall into the mistake of thinking that um, you know, you're just kind of bartering with customers, whatever, and it's at the very end is where the transaction actually happens when they make a commitment to purchase with you. But that entire time you are building towards that, right? And so similarly for you, obviously in your role, you've seen that. But um, you know, maybe I'll I'll throw it to you and ask contractors that do that well versus contractors that don't do that well. Can you can can you compare and contrast those a little bit for me about a contractor maybe that is more of a seasoned veteran? He's an expert, he knows his stuff, he knows how to talk to customers versus the young guy who's stumbling along, figuring it out earnest, and he's got the drive and energy, he just hasn't been able to put the pieces together yet. What is what is it that kind of separate separates those things? And you know, you if you have any thoughts, perspectives based on your experience working with so many contractors, how does one move from one to the other?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, I well, well, I mean, I think that the big the one thing that I would take away from that question if I was to, you know, put on my pre previous um, you know, professional experience, um, and I'm dealing with contractors as a whole, whether it's a subcontractor, whether it's a project manager, um, whether it's with the organization within itself, but you know, I'll stick to, for example, just on a contractor level. For those that understood what the ask was, and if they didn't understand what the ask was from their client, is asking questions to further their, you know, understanding of what it is that they're there to do, first and foremost. Uh, secondly, is once they feel confident of what that what there is and they've asked all the questions relevant, or maybe they didn't have to, it's being able to provide that color and context. Like I would always say, you know, to anybody in my restoration experience as well, and where I felt that I excelled, it was it's paint the brightest picture, right? Just don't plaint with black and whites. You know, you want to be able to give color and context to your customer as to why I'm doing this, as to why I feel this needs to be done. And if not, this is what's going to potentially happen. Or if I'm being questioned on pricing, or if I was the one when I was on the other side of it from an appraisal standpoint, asking about things in terms of how they're being quoted and priced out. More often than not, you know, it was the contractors or individuals who would be able to give me, you know, an in-depth response as to why and the justification behind it, where it really does start to support that from an experience. And I think that this is uh again, when it comes to being a confidant, is people just don't nod their heads and go, yes, and that's be because that's what the price is, right? No, it's it's really truly understanding or being able to relate to previous conversations that we've had. Hey, listen, when we walk through this project, right, here's some of the things that I asked, and here's what you told me, and here's why, right? Um, I think that sometimes even flipping the script and flipping things on their head, and by that what I mean is is there'd be sometimes, you know, if I was on that contracting side as a project manager, if I didn't get the job, right, I may say to a client, you know, you know, I can understand that you didn't go with my services because I wasn't, you know, I didn't use the word the cheapest, but I wasn't the one who was um maybe most economic economical. However, if you could do this for me, I'd like you to ask them the following questions. And that's it. It really does throw people for a little bit of a loop, right? Because then they start to question themselves as to what they were presented with. Is that actually fitting the bill? And that's not to throw anybody the under under the bus, but more often than not, that's what you started to see was the most economical one. But by the time the job was done, they were no longer the more economical. In fact, they might have actually been the highest quoted initially. Um, you know, you hear it all the time when it comes to cabinetry, for example, or any finishing product. But that's sort of where I would say based off not just my experience, but also my expectations of a home being a homeowner, right? If I'm bringing people into my projects that I'm working on, right, I want the people who are coming to me where it's not just smoking mirrors and painting me a whole bunch of pictures of, oh, we'll do this, we'll do that, we'll do this. It's really understanding where I'm at, providing me with suggestions and insight, um, coming with a, you know, there's Sense of confidence. And with that confidence, as I mentioned before, it starts to build the trust level. Right. And, you know, I've seen it in cases where people still reach out to me, you know, in terms of, hey, you know, I've come across with this, is there any questions that I should ask? And I've been out of the industry for quite some time now, but it's this is missing, this is missing, this is missing. And if I relate that to where I'm at now currently, that's really where I start to gravitate to, is trying to, you know, again, understand the business, the potential challenges that, you know, my accounts might be facing. You know, bringing into light some of the things that I've gained through experience and what I've seen out in the market and really building that rapport. There's nothing that pleases me more than if I get a phone call, you know, out of the blue from one of our accounts. Um, you know, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. What are your thoughts? Like the question of asking me what are your thoughts, you know, it really does, you know, it's sort of sort of like the feather in the cap moment behind the scenes because um I appreciate that. And I think we all have those people who are who are their confidants a little bit or mentors in in a way, um, you know, in that consultants, in another word, for trusted advisor, you got it. Um, and that to me is when you see that, then not only can you build the, you're building a rapport to grow with one another or grow a business. And even if it's a single transaction, right? It's through that type of experience that I could almost say with certainty that that person's going to be recommended, you know, to their peers. Um, hey, I know this person who did an amazing job for us, and here's why. And it might not even necessarily be the job itself. It was how they were treated, how they were handled. You weren't just a transaction transaction where it's, you know, one and done, see you later, and collect the check and away you go. Um, but throughout the entirety of the process, and that person's then relied on. So whether it's an individual contractor where you're a company of one or an organization, you know, I think that that's sort of where I would see it at.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well, I and again, that all brings us full circle to being that trusted advisor, right? Yeah. And I think again, the the benefit of speaking to if you don't know what you're talking about, being honest about that, and then you know, leveraging every bit of experience that you can into offering advice, insight, perspective to whoever it is that you're talking to about um what they should be doing, right? And so um, even going back to that, right? Like sometimes inexperience can be a very valuable perspective because you're willing to ask, especially if you are, I should say, willing to ask kind of quote unquote stupid questions, because sometimes you can be so ingrained in an industry, a project, a client, a what a business, whatever, that you do forget to look at it from that lens, right? And so one of the things that like I feel like I I'm hearing you saying is under a trusted advisor does not automatically assume that the customer knows exactly what it is they actually need, right? Um, and so you know, I often compare this to a doctor. Well, if someone goes to visit a doctor, they can make a suggestion about what they think is wrong with them, if they think it's this or that, but the symptom is not necessarily the sickness, right? And so being a trusted advisor, you know, what the benefit is over time and over years and over jobs and so on and so forth, is that you have that much more of like a rich history to draw on when you're meeting with people and you're making recommendations about um what they should do next. Yeah. Um so based on that, I guess, you know, what um I guess are there any other things that you see that contractors do that would make them more trustworthy and like um yeah, something that that would help set them further apart as a trusted advisor?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Um I I'm sure that there's I'm sure that there's a multitude of things. I think that it it is really about being being transparent. Um, you know, in terms as to, you know, it's no different than you think about, you know, sometimes if you talk about trades and and you know, a mechanic, for example. You use the word mechanic, and sometimes people will shudder a little bit because, you know, you went in with one problem and you were given five other ones that you need to deal with just because, right? Um and I'm painting with a very broad stroke because of course there's absolute amazing mechanics. But I think the biggest challenge there, and it seems like there's people that are trying to figure out what to do to um soften that type of stigma, is that hey, you know, come with us and we're gonna walk you through it, right? Um and I think from a contractor's perspective, like that's one of the things I say that goes, you know, goes to that painting the brightest picture is that listening, not hearing what the customer wants, but listening to what the customer wants, asking good questions if you need to have follow-up questions, and then you know, through suggesting what may need to happen as a result, right? You know, if you're if you're a plumber and you're going into a century-old home where there's been minimal work that's been done, you know, chances are there's probably going to be some other things that fail throughout the process. Um, and rather than there being this stigma of things increasing, right, is walking somebody through, you know, and educating them, right? You know, and you know, and it's it's not meant to come across as, oh, well, it's an upsell here, it's an upsell there. You know, if the person trusts you based off how you're walking through them and handling, you know, you know, upsells can sometimes be used as a dirty word, but when you're actually walking them through, then there's that, there's the softening of that expectation, right? Or better yet, is, you know, depending on the products that uh a homeowner wants to use. You know, maybe there is benefit to using more premium products. And we come across this quite a bit as it relates to, you know, our we're big into stainless steel and in some of our stainless steel categories. And one of the reasons is, and we recognize it's a premium product that met may best be suited in certain scenarios where if only price points being looked at, then chances are that's going to be met with uh a negative result on the road.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

All of this is super interesting, too, again, as we talk more about being a trusted advisor and really think about give maybe, yeah, for lack of a better term, like giving away that knowledge and experience we have to someone who has not committed the job or money to us yet, right? And so maybe not uh exclusively to contracting or explicitly to contracting, but in general, I know that there is kind of this stigma for service professionals to be concerned about giving too much great advice to their customers too early that they might take that and run with that and go to a competitor and just execute on your idea. So for you, you know, for again for contractors listening, do you have a response to that? Do you think should we be more guarded about our knowledge and our experience before we've uh kind of had a commitment of any kind? Or do you see that as the path to building really great rapport with a client and taking it to the next level, right? Because again, even as you're talking about upsell opportunities and things, you know, clients can view that as you just trying to squeeze them for more money, or they can view it as you are an expert who knows what you're talking about and you're trying to provide them genuine help, even if they are not fully thinking through what their issues are and what they need to do. So, anywho, when it comes to then giving away your knowledge, is that something that contractors need to be nervous about doing?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

No. Like I it's because I think that it if if you know, I think that through time, again and experience, you're going to be right more often than not in terms of who you're dealing with. And of course, there's those things that you can reflect back on and say, oh, I should have, could have. Um, but at the same time, uh I think that through that you you're not changing your character. Right? If I have to, if I have to play a part and do certain things in certain ways throughout, now don't get me wrong, again, as I mentioned, is that you know, through experience. So if you feel that you're wanting, you're new in this business and wanting to get business, then I would say try to be as as open as you can. You know, you're going to you're going to be successful more often than you're not. Um, through experience, and and you know, if if you feel that that's actually something that you're dwelling on, you know, I guess that that's to me is going, you know, judging who it is that your potential client is, right? Again, is this a homeowner? Is this a business? Is this, you know, because just like any industry, me, you know, people talk, right? And people can create um a little bit of a history uh into it. Um, but I find for myself personally, um, I have no problems, you know, sharing insights to, you know, with where I'm at. Because here's the the thing is, is that as I've mentioned before, if I'm not getting the work, I still want to ensure that that the end user that I was working with is best equipped for success. Right. And if I feel and if I feel, right, and I've had and I've had instances in the past where I've asked to do like a comparative analysis type of thing. And of course, that sometimes can be when a homeowner gets uneasy, and rightfully so. Um, but even for some of my for my friends that I've, you know, who have been doing projects and they're in the middle of it and asking me for my opinion, and it's it's and you take a look, you can start to even support and say, well, here's why this person justifies this, based if you take a look at what this is, right? And maybe here are some follow-up questions to ask. Um, and and I get where you're where you're coming from. And it's there's always going to be that sense of, you know, do I divulge this? It but the thing is, is, you know, we're not rocket scientists that are, you know, divulging, you know, trade secrets. I think it's about like, yeah, the expertise level of of why you take pride in your work and what it is that you're doing to try to build that business. Um and and sometimes people will, you know, will remember that, right? They might not use you on that job, okay, but you know, by equipping somebody for success to go elsewhere, right? They might go, oh wow, like you know, what that person didn't steer me wrong, right? And so, yeah, you didn't get them on the first go around, but maybe you'll get them on the second go around.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Well, and I think that that's a phenomenal reminder, right? It's easy to feel like I lost that job. I must not be good enough, or I'm giving too much away, or I'm not doing enough. You could come up with a million reasons, right? And I think it's helpful too when you don't win a job to simply ask, was there something I could have done better? Was there a reason you went with a different service provider, right? And oftentimes, at least in my experience, people will be pretty honest and upfront about why they didn't want to give you the business. And that can be a painful thing to get some honest critique and feedback sometimes, but it's insanely valuable, right? And you know, I think you were saying this even on the restoration side, right? Like you've been out of that for quite a while. But if you still have people that call you up and say, hey Jonathan, can you give me some feedback on this? Or what would you do? I think it speaks to your expertise. And I think especially, you know, for contractors, service providers, whatever, listening to this, trying to, you know, get their business up and going and just dealing with clients day in and out, you might not get that business today. And, you know, the longer you're in the industry, that probably bothers you less and less because you understand that you'll eventually get clients somewhere along the line. Um, but understanding that those clients that you didn't land can still refer you work, if not themselves in the future. They can still bring other people your way that are better suited to the project or whatever it is, right? Yep. Um, and so I think that that is a really important thing for people to remember is just because you did not win this job does not mean that that interaction with that customer is just over. Doesn't mean that they've forgotten you or wiped you from their memory. Yeah, of course there's gonna be circumstances where that's true, but it doesn't have to be. And I think based on the level of service and expertise that you bring to the relationship and that you provide there, there's absolutely opportunity that there will be follow-up on that. But one of the things, and obviously, with your uh experience, you know, where you are right now, having especially maybe we'll back up a little bit in on the insurance side and you know, with the businesses you had before this, I would have to assume, correct me if I'm wrong, I would have to assume you may have had some suboptimal experiences with contractors along the way. If that were true, I guess my question to you, whether that's um working on the insurance side, whether that's working as an appraiser, working, whether that's just you as a homeowner, are there patterns that you see? Are there things that contractors are doing that uh are hurting their business? And maybe, you know, especially if there are easy opportunities to um to improve and to pick up and to to make some corrective action on those things. Do you have any advice for those contractors?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think it's it's it's one of those things where, you know, being whether it was myself as a project manager who would have subcontractors and and hiring trades myself to, as I mentioned, being a homeowner and you know, or even myself selling my services, you know, what it boils down to it's the care, right? The care and the pride, like the care in yourself and how you how you present yourself. You know, how what's your attire like? And that doesn't mean that you have to be in this pristine shape, but you know, um, you know, and we won't name companies, but you know, one of the trades that I dealt with a lot in the sub-roof or in from a subcontracting, for example, was roofing, right? And you know, there's a difference between the roofers who are well committed safety-wise, how they're handling themselves, keeping a clean project versus the person who's wearing, you know, cut off blue jeans and and no shirt on with their beer belly hanging out and with a smoke in hand. You got it, right? Like, so that, you know, I think that there's, you know, and I'm going to an extreme level there, but I think that when it comes down to when I say the word care, you know, how are you handling yourself, you know, in the home? How are you treating their home? Whether their home is pristine or whether it's not, it's still their castle, right? So how are you treating their home? How are, you know, how are you treating the work that you're actually doing? You know, setting the tone and the expectation for yourself. I think that, you know, if a person has low standards for themselves, they're probably going to deliver low standards. If a person has high standards for themselves and for their business and for the people under their employee, there's going to set a bar of high standards that people are going to see. So whether or not, again, and I use the reference a company of one or company of 50, right? If you can build that to scale, right, in terms of handling your business and you have people who are under your employee, right, you know, it is. It's setting that expectation, not just about the work that they're doing, but you're trying to help them in terms of that organizational structure, um, setting the expectations. And for a lot of people who work for, you know, larger organizations that are on the trades, a lot of those people who are on the tools may have ambition, you know, to themselves venture out into the world and have their, and I would say, you know, again, from a person from employee, it's a lot easier to set a person up for success if they take what's built up and take that and emulate it as they move forward. Um, or vice versa, though, for those people who, you know, start up and they want to be a company of one to start, I would just say it's it's taking that care, right? And when people see that and they had those conversations uh on it, again, it builds that trust level, you know, and you know, in some cases, yeah, there's there's a stigma to it in some cases. Um, to your point, you know, smoke in hand and and and carrying through versus how you conduct yourself, the words that you use. The other thing that I would say is, you know, I I always say to try to repeat or emulate what your audience is doing, right? So you don't want to be loud and boisterous if you're in a soft-spoken, you know, environment type of thing. And I know that that sounds a little, you know, just maybe not off the rails, but a little bit of a side tangent. But it is, there is something to it, right? Um, versus somebody who comes in uh a little bit boisterous and overwhelming and loud can be very, you know, off-putting. It's and it's that to me is as much as it's a it's a side structure. It still I think really does help in terms of for those who are building in their business. Um, you know, I try to, you know, I try to make a, I try to make a point, and I've always have, and it doesn't matter again what industry I'm in, is to really ensure that that's, you know, my what I've always said is that in my professional life, you know, people get 80% of what I am actually probably like in my personal life. Because, you know, there's barriers, right? And and I think that that's the thing that, you know, you really want on a um, you know, you really want to sh show yourself in a way where, again, it's that trust level and how you to be trusted.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Well, it's putting your best self forward, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's better word than I'm gonna be to put on a shirt before you knock on the door to you know answer the service call, things of that nature, right? Yeah. Um, and I think that uh, you know, as much as you're saying, I, you know, maybe that feels kind of uh like a bit of a sidebar or a tangent, I think in reality, I think that stuff matters a lot more than we sometimes like to think it does. And that can it matters a lot, you know. I I've got I've gone into many conversations with uh friends of mine about, you know, even just things like the clothes you wear and what does it convey about the environment you're in and how you relate to it, right? And so even down to the details like that, uh, I think a big message can be sent there, depending on what the message is that you want to send in the first place. But obviously, from a service perspective, I think that's a phenomenal answer. On the selling side, so you obviously work in sales. Yeah, uh, on the the in your previous work history, anyways, you've also dealt with sales, whether you're on the receiving end or you're uh seeking out services from someone. Are there common sales mistakes that contractors make? Easy things, whether it's again, whether it's um simple things that they can make corrections on immediately, whether it's big things, frameworks, mindsets, you know. I think if I can maybe even just venture one really quickly about um educating the client, right? Educating your customer and not just coming in and offering a price. So I've uh I've got a guy, I I need my fence replaced in my backyard, okay? So uh this is a true story. So I need my fence replaced, right? It's been falling down, uh, not a great situation. So I had a guy that uh uh he's an acquaintance of mine, nice guy, I know him a bit, and I had him come and he looked it over, and uh it took a couple weeks to get him out there, and I wasn't able to be there when he was there, and then took probably another week and a half, two weeks after that before he sent me a quote for it, and he essentially kind of just said, here's the length of the fence, here's the price. And that was about all the context I got. And so I'm looking now, like I always have been, but I've been looking to compare that to a couple other uh fencing contractors to just see what I am up against, right? Um, we didn't talk about design, we didn't talk about aesthetic, timeline, really any of that. And so I'm coming out of that first conversation, like, okay, I've got a frame of reference now, but I'm still kind of lacking greater context, which again speaks to um what we were talking about earlier in this conversation about painting a vivid picture, about being a trusted advisor, about giving away your knowledge, and that even if you don't win that business and they do take it and they run to a competitor, that you can stand by your work, be proud of what you do, and uh be glad knowing that you genuinely helped someone, right? And trusting that eventually that will probably work its way back to you. But, anyways, bringing this full circle, that was one example from my personal life of a contracting opportunity there on the sales side to do a better job there. Have you seen other patterns, other things? Is there anything that really grinds your gears? Is there any message you would love to send about your experience with contractors when it comes to sales?

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah, I you know, I think that in terms of what you said on the experience and it's it again, it's that example of hearing versus listening. Um, you know, are you, you know, are you asking the right questions or are you just going in there and somebody says, Is you know, my fence needs to be replaced, and you look at a section of fence and you go, it's gonna cost you X amount of dollars without any justification. So they're just automatically assuming all you want is light kind and quality, right? So it's that's what it is. Rather than saying, Oh, interesting. So you are I'm assuming that you're wanting to go back with light kind and quality. Is there any thought of doing any updating? You know, are you wanting to put a gable on the top for the rest of the fence for some additional privacy? You know, I it's and again, I can get the hesitation because you know, for some people, they might think that they're trying to like, it's like when you go into a retail store and they're like, is there anything else I can help you with? Is there anything else, right? You know, so there's that sense of upsell. But if you get that out of your mind and you're having that conversation with a homeowner, and and it could just be as simple as, you know, um, Aiden, you know, so you so you brought me here for this section of fence, and I'm assuming you want like kind and quality, right? You're either gonna say, yep, I just want you to do that, or oh, what other options might there be? Yeah. Well, like, you know, a this is what we could potentially do. Um, this is where, again, I'll use my restoration hat is for for in an insurance restoration, uh, from a point of insurance, it's you're putting everything back together as light kind and quality, right? However, if I'm going into an outdated home, you know, uh that's that's quite outdated aesthetically and I'm putting it back like kind and quality, I'm putting back comparable materials. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't walk my homeowner through the potential of giving things a facelift, right? That it's still within that price point, but hey, you know, have you thought about maybe giving it a little bit of an update? You know, we could do different colors of paintings, right? Um, and it's when you start to do that and bring a person into that job, their own job a little bit and asking those questions. I think that that to me from a sales strategy is the difference of what I would expect in in terms of that separates somebody from just the standard, you know, I'm here to do a task, that's it, here's my bill, and and walk out. Yeah. Right. Um, now, granted, there are going to be certain jobs that that's the transactional relationship that there is. Um, but I think that for those who are uh independent business owners, um, you know, who let's face it, there could be seasons where there's not much that's going on. And um, as somebody who um is married to an entrepreneur, you see the stress of what that can sometimes create or cause, and even more so when you have staff under your employee, right? Um, so to have a little bit of that ambition drive mixed with personality as well, I think from a character. Um, and as I said, care, right? I think that that's really where, you know, what impresses me with people, and and you mentioned, you know, in terms of the irks, it's the opposite of that. It's it's the people who um really don't have that sense of care. Um you know, and it's it's unfortunate because I think that in a lot of the cases for for some people that I've talked to you know who are on the other end who who do hiring, almost everybody says I'd be I would have been more than willing to do that. But that was ne I was never asked, or nobody even told me that that was an option.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

I think that's really interesting because at least it's been my experience, you know, I've got lots of friends, acquaintances, people that I connect with that are business owners in all kinds of different industries. And for so many of them, sales is still a very icky word. They they I will regularly meet people just in daily life and they will be like, ah, I'm not much of a salesman. And I think that's a shame because you know, the classic uh snake oil salesman, used car salesman, whatever, we we equate that with sales, and obviously, you as a sales professional and Bochard Industries and our sales force, like sales probably means something very different to us than it does to maybe some of these smaller uh businesses, contractors, you name it. How does someone break out of the mindset that sales is slimy and gross and something to be avoided? And how do you embrace it as one, a necessary part of the process, but two, something that again can actually be really useful, not just for the end user, but for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah, well, well, it's it this is a relevant question because again, if you were to have asked me 20 years ago, heck, even five years ago, that I'd be in sales, I would have told you there is no way because of the stigma of that word of sales. Um, you know, so when I first, you know, my first professional uh job, as I as I said at the start of the podcast, was um out of college, I started as a professional ballroom Latin dance instructor. Um part of your job was sales, like you were selling dance lessons. Um and freshly coming out of college in terms of who my audience was that I was teaching, let's just say that the the salary scale was vastly different. Um, and you know, and I had to try to s sell dance lessons, right? And you're selling dance lessons that you know aren't aren't exorbitant, but they're not they're not cheap either. It's not like you're going to a community center or anything like that. And there was this stigma of having to try to to sell. And it's like, and um, my not my wife at the time, but um who would become your wife. Who would become my wife, yeah, my boss. Um basically it said was, you know, what you're doing is not selling dance lessons. You're selling yourself. You're selling yourself in terms of how you give that hour's worth of an experience, how you talk to them, how you paint the picture, how you, you know, understand their hobbies and stuff. And it's like, yeah, I get it. But, you know, she was right. Through time, there wasn't even a question of price. It was like, oh, I'm out of dance lessons, let's buy more. Like, and um, which is a good experience to uh to have that. And I would say that again, through time, as I've, you know, I got onto the restoration side of things, it was it was selling myself. It wasn't about the price point anymore. It came about painting that picture, being articulate enough that in the hopes that people, through my conversations and building that rapport with somebody, that it wasn't necessarily about dollars and cents per se. Um, and when I was initially uh asked about the possibility of joining, you know, um here uh and if there was interest, again, that stigma came up, going, you know, I'm not a salesperson. Um but when it was but when it was worded to me in the way that it was and and I draw drew from it, it really is. I think that once you get out of that stigma, um for me, I find sales is through um you know, through experience and building relationships. We'll go back to the trusted advisor standpoint, right? You know, of course there's always going to be questions in terms of price and and those types of things. However, if you get stuck on that, right, then what's gonna happen is you're always going to dwell on it. And we talk about the imposter syndrome and those types of things. Um, but if I'm carrying out an organic conversation or I'm presenting myself to a customer and a client in a way where I'm building that rapport, I'm giving the color in context, the price almost becomes secondary. And even when it is questioned, right? Well, we went through the like we went through this conversation or consultation, and here's what, here's what you told me, right? And here's why it is where like it is where it is. Um and again, you're going to get a lot of people, I would say, going, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And of course, you of course you're going to get some people that are still very on the economical side, but to be frank, that's not your problem. Right. And I think that that's that's the that was sort of the aha moment for me, you know, when I first started off, was I couldn't justify trying to sell something that myself couldn't afford personally, right? And you know, what I was told was you need to get over that because you're not them, right? And I think that that is in a way from a sales perspective. Again, there's levels to it in terms of the numbers that you talk about, but you know, numbers aside, it's still approach the same. Whether I'm talking to somebody on a small project or whether I'm talking to somebody on a really large-scale project. Um, you know, it's how you're handling yourself is one and the same. It's it's don't deviate from your character, don't deviate to what put you there in the in the first place. Um you can you can adapt, but those core foundations need to stay the same.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

I love that because I think that it's easy, you know, and it's easy to kind of be tricked into thinking that in order to be a great salesperson, I just need to know the product really well. I need to know the service really well. And you know, I always joke that if that were true, we would have engineers as salespeople. And we don't because sales is about so much more than just that, right? But I really like what you were saying about recognizing that what you are selling is more than just the particular product it is or the service it is at that moment, right? It's about the experience, it's about the end result, it's about what it gets you, right? It's the difference between uh Apple saying, Oh, here, this iPod, it's uh an MP3 player like everyone else, or it's a thousand songs in your pocket, right? Well, what is it that you really want? It's you want your music on the go. Well, that's the thing they're gonna sell you, right? Even in the marketing department, one of our ladies uh had it's winter at the time that we're filming this, lots of ice, big snowstorms, and a leaky roof. And that is a horrible place to be. I'm sure you've dealt a lot with that uh in the rest of the tis the season right now. Tis the season. And so when that happens, uh, you know, you have to figure out where is that water, that ice, that damage getting in. It's resulted in they've had to pull apart her whole kitchen. She's looking at potentially an entire kitchen remodel. Like it gets out of hand fast. And so I imagine that the the contractor, the service provider in that instance, if he's thinking very smart, he's gonna recognize her motivation is not just isolated to I want to stop this leak in my roof, which I imagine is a very important thing to her, of course. But now it's like, I want my home back, I want my life back, I want normalcy, I want my home to be this warm and inviting place. And so if he can, you know, not go crazy, but tap into that to say what I'm providing you by fixing your roof and restoring all the walls and insulation, all that stuff is getting you closer to fixing this problem that is um interrupting your home. Yeah, I think he taps into something that's much more valuable in terms of being able to not just only compete on price and you know what's the cheapest, best discount I can give you, whatever. But he's he's hitting on something bigger. And if I'm not mistaken, I feel like that's what I hear you saying about some of the greatest contractors, and especially on the sales side, is when you get out of thinking that sales is only about, okay, here's this product I need to know, all the tech specs and everything like that, and answer any customer objection that might come up, and blah, blah, blah. And when you start seeing it as just a component of the bigger picture, that's when your mindset shifts. And again, I think that that all the only place that leads you to is that trusted advisor, right? As we've been talking about this whole episode of like, how do I provide this person value? Whether or not they work with me today, how do I actually help them get closer?

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Yeah, yeah. I um, you know, I tell my team this. I've I've I've said this, you know, whether it's through, you know, myself learning it over time and leadership. And it's not like this is advice that's a nuance from from me that's a eureka moment. It's just, you know, it's getting it from others. There's nothing wrong with saying, I don't know. And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know what, I'm not sure, but I'll ask somebody that I think will know that and I'll get something to you, you know, as soon as possible. And this is where, as you've mentioned, you know, you use the you just use the term engineers, right? And it's but we have a great team here in terms of our RD team, uh, in terms of our QA team that we pride ourselves on from a customer delight experience that I know in terms of their overall experience will far outweigh anything that I probably will know within the next 25, 30 years. Why wouldn't I want to try to utilize that to help give a customer the best experience spot possible rather than you know trying to spin a ball of yarn to them that, as I said, you know, people are going to see right through that, right? Um, and sometimes, and rightfully so, uh, sometimes people ask you a question they already know.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Absolutely, because they want to see if you know the truth or if you're gonna try to BS them and you gotta make your way through it, right? And and I think a lot of that speaks to um there's a book called Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. I don't know if you've read it. Really good book. And one of the things that he talks about in there is not necessarily being the absolute smartest guy in the room or have the most technical knowledge, but at least having within arm's reach the people that are, right? And so I think again, for contractors listening to this, that um what you can take away from that is absolutely, it's not that you need product knowledge or sales knowledge. It's not either or it's both and you do need both, right? But understanding that product knowledge is only going to bring you so far. So in another life, I was a wedding photographer, and I will be the first to admit that I was not the most creative, not the most talented wedding photographer there was purely as a photographer. But I understood business more than a lot of my peers did. And so while a lot of the other uh photographers that, you know, on social media they looked very successful, I'd have conversations with them and they did not understand business much more than I put a price on my website and someone pays me to show up. That's kind of all they got out of it. And in fairness, like I wasn't like I was, you know, some business guru either. So fair enough. Um, but what I recognized was my technical ability was only going to bring me so far. I had to, if I truly wanted to grow my business, I had to focus on the business side of it as well in order to get me where I wanted to go, right? And so maybe kind of on that note, and as we slowly start to wrap up here, thinking about those contractors that are looking to grow, that are trying to break out of maybe a rut they're in, or they are again, maybe they're just getting started, maybe they've been in the industry a while and they just feel stagnant. What advice do you have, if any, for someone about how to kind of break through the barriers, to reach the next level to um, you know, maybe it's uh how do I get my first sale, or how do I get the next sale, or how do I raise my prices without losing all my customers? I think what is some of your kind of parting wisdom for a contractor who is looking for more than where they are today?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Yeah, I another good question. I mean, I'm sure that there's a lot of different variables. Um, you know, what one of the things that I would say is, you know, have a good counsel. And by that, what I mean is, you know, whether or not that's on a personal side or your professional side as it relates to your trade, you know, you're not isolated and on an island, right? Like I'm sure that there's people that talk to other people that are in the same trade and profession, you know, um, you know, and build rapport and relationships. And in fact, I've been to events where there's multiple uh contractors and they all know one another. They all not only know one another, but they very frequently cross paths, whether that's on bidding on projects, those types of things. Um, but you you get the sense of camaraderie. Now, of course, there's, you know, it wouldn't be, you know, there should be a sense of competitiveness, right? But if there's a person who's coming into the wings and and struggling, it's, you know, maybe trying to align yourself with someone or some organization that you strive to be, right? Um, and you know, what made them successful? Again, don't be afraid to ask the silly questions, right? It's it's this is this is the this is really where more often than not, most people are going to um have no problems telling you how they got to where they got.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

When you're asking someone a question or asking, can you tell me how you did that? You know, you you might run across some of the people we talked about earlier that are going to be very guarded, that are not going to share their knowledge, that are just going to see you as a competitor and are going to grit their teeth at you. But chances are there are other people that are going to be very excited. And I think, again, you know, I don't want to make generalized generalizations or sweeping statements about the industry as a whole, but I think a lot of the, you know, the old timers that are slowly aging out of the industry, those guys have a lifetime of knowledge. And I think, you know, we we experienced this at Bauchar. We have people that have been here 30, 35, 40, 45 years, their whole careers essentially here. And, you know, as some of those people look to retirement, we're sad about it and we're trying to retain as much of their knowledge and experience as we can. And, you know, one of the great privileges of uh my time here at Bouchard has been working alongside these people. Absolutely. And especially even when I came in and I was a young buck and had no idea anything about plumbing or water. Well, I would ask the stupid questions and I was never shamed, never embarrassed, like always, you know, we're pals and they'll tease me fine. But they were always, they could see that I was honest and sincere in what I was seeking out. And I think that that was uh a huge step towards actually getting to where I am, was being able to ask those questions. Yeah, right. And again, to maybe even just bring the conversation full circle to understand that um you can step into an industry that you don't know and be successful. And a lot of that you do not have to have insane product knowledge or um, you know, decades of experience prior to your success. You can lean into what you don't know and use that different perspective from the people you're meeting with uh as an advantage.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Yeah, absolutely, Aiden. I think that this is where it's depending on an audience who uh may be listening to this or seen some of our videos before, you know, and understanding where you where a person wants to go for from a goals perspective. If they're coming straight out of trade school and they're doing an apprenticeship, you know, are do they want to be a person that's on the tools all the time? Do they want to be an actual business owner and an entrepreneur? Um, you know, once you start to understand that and then gravitating towards, right? So if you're wanting to, you know, you do your apprenticeship and wanting to grow a business, then chances are, and and get out into that, then chances are you may want to put yourself towards an organization that really fits a criteria of like, hey, I want to be like them. What can I do? And then, you know, through time showing your self-worth and ambition and and getting there. Um, but you're right. I more often than not, people are more than willing to help out. And I think that that sometimes can be a stigma. Um, and I'm completely with you on the Beauchart standpoint and coming over everybody in terms of the experience that's been here and and being able to utilize that only makes us better at what we do for the next 20, 30 years. Absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Well, I feel like that's a perfect place to leave it. So, Jonathan, thank you so much, man, for your time. Thank you for your insight. I'm sure our audience thanks you as well. Uh, yeah, man. I hope we get to do this again soon. You bet, pal. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Thanks, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Thanks a lot. And that is our episode. Hope that you got a lot of great stuff out of that. If you want to watch more of our contractor elite uh podcasts, you want to check out our newsletter, head to contractorelite.co. Sign up, it's completely free. It's a lot of amazing content that comes out every week, whether it's a newsletter, podcast episode, uh, an educational video, but you can only access it if you sign up at contractorelite.co. So go do that. And until then, we will catch you in the next episode.